eloquent, engaging multi media conversation: Uncle John and John Clay talk music, politics, inclusivity.

The video for Ground Zero by Uncle John is an internationally flavoured, parallel dimension, cinematic short.

Interview with Uncle John

Uncle John takes an opportunity to reveal his experience of organised religion, the need for inclusivity within the music industry and the necessary debunking of a popular myth within the gay community.

‘There’s a young singer/songwriter called Seeva. He is gay, and Asian and he writes with honesty of where he is in his life. It’s beautiful.’ - Uncle John

John Clay: You've gone on record as to not being sure where you fit in the discussion of a musician's role on political discourse. Tell us of your current musings on the subject.

“I think my comfort level is about getting it right on what you want to say. You don’t want to sound ill informed. There are plenty of people out there better read than myself. I don’t want to compete with anyone else. But I will touch on subjects through what I write. It may take some time to confront musically but as I become more confident in my writing I hope I can make more commentary on what I see and feel.”

What song of yours are you most proud of that falls within this line of inquiry?

‘Rise Up’ deals with organised religion, our need to follow and how, to me, it’s about control and guilt pushed through their power/money/abuse at all levels.

I don’t consider myself religious or have great faith but it’s odd, as religious themes and it’s language turn up in my songs.”

Was there a particular instance or event that served as focus for the song? The Catholic church and the sexual abuse that has routinely been sidestepped and obfuscated by the Vatican springs to mind.

” I went to a school for a couple of years between the ages of twelve to fourteen. It was a catholic boys school. I could see stuff going on. Not overtly but I understood enough. I remember being sent to be caned and being ordered to drop my trousers. I was 14. I remember shaking but resolutely refused. I left that place the next day. Never went back. My dad wouldn’t believe me about what was going on there. Denial. It emerged in the local media a couple of years later. I’m surprised it hasn’t been looked at again.”

Corporal punishment is utterly pointless, and it's depressing that people don't want to face up to the abuse that innocents went through. Do you think you'll write exclusively about what you observed?

“It’s hideous the power and fear those teachers exerted. Looking back I can see why some of those young boys would act up or be bullies to other kids. I came into the school year later so I never felt I fit anyway so I was always on the edge of everything - with teachers and other kids. I think we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg when it comes to systemic sexual abuse of minors with these kind of organisations.

I’ve explored bits and pieces in older songs. Maybe I’ll pull it together one day.”

Ever watch the film Spotlight starring Michael Keaton? It's based on the true story of systemic sexual abuse in Boston in the early 2000's.

Really illustrated how far the church would go to cover up for its priests and prevent parents from obtaining justice. In keeping with our wider political concern, you were asked in our recent zoom interview about people who have inspired you politically within a musical context. Now you've had some time to add to that list, feel free to share them.

“ I haven’t seen that film but will go find it now.”

“All the greats are there Joni, Marvin, Bruce but then disco slayer Sylvester was an eye opener as a kid about to hit ten years old. I think Joni was totally underrated during the eighties. She took on some serious stuff - she championed the indigenous American plight for years - coupled with the gorgeous production values not overly liked at the time. And she took on Dylan too.”

“Tori Amos was a revelation from the nineties. It took me some years to take her onboard but in 1996 she was charged with tackling the Catholic Church. Her setting up of a charity helpline for victims of rape, her later work challenging the American political map - she had a unique view into that world from her playing rooms for politicians back when she was cutting her teeth. She’s hugely underrated as an active voice.

I remember Frank Ocean’s Channel Orange making me stand in my room and not move. It was beautiful and I had to dig to find out what was going on. Brilliant.

I love something that comes along and it makes you want to go out and find out more quickly.

“Classically, Henryk Górecki is the one I go back to again and again. His compositions are driven by the Polish political map. The mournful, brooding beauty of his Symphony 3 is one of the most beautiful heart wrenching pieces of music I’ve ever heard. I went for a period of about a year where that’s all I went to bed with. I then had to leave it alone and only recently have returned to it. It makes my whole body succumb.

I respond emotionally to what moves me. Even the most fab pop song can reduce me to tears cos it’s so clever.”

This is great as I feel I've gotten to know you so much better here, particularly the eclecticism of your content intake.

Next question - one that is quite a heavy and necessary one - is there any common misconception about being a gay man within the music industry that you wish to take this moment to debunk?

“Absolutely. We are more than disco. You only need to turn on say gaydio radio and such like: it’s just the same kind of music. Being gay doesn’t mean our music is light and frothy. As a gay guy in my early fifties I have a wealth of influences which will come through in my identity and I’m my writing. I don’t want to be invisible as an older gay man. I love what John Grant does - he’s an inspiration too. Fantastic music and lyrical content and proudly out there. P.S I love disco too - haha.”

Why do you think such an idea has been so pervasive?

“I think it bore out of seventies gay rights movement after the decriminalisation of male gay sex in 67 and that went hand in hand with striving for freedom, celebration, sexual liberation and it was the era of disco.

But it always had the political undercurrent as we were then into the AIDS era and then section 28 towards the end of the 80s. The songs from Bronski Beat, Communards, Culture Club, Frankie were great pop songs but had political messages too. I think we’ve lost that importance and urgency and let’s face it, the world isn’t in any better shape now.”

Good points, especially regarding the confluence of liberation in the era of disco. Can you clarify what you mean regarding the loss of importance?

“Important as in the lack of social conscience in mainstream music now. I think the rap artists are addressing this for their genre but other under represented groups aren’t so much. So much content is now homogenised.”

Is there a danger in looking back at the past with rose tinted spectacles? Was the mainstream full of intersectionality or do we confuse a few huge entertainers for being signifiers of a whole herd of transgressive artists?

” It’s not about looking back but understanding the history of what went down and why young lgbtq+ have the rights they have today. There is a road fought hard for and we still need to continue to stand up for these rights. We’ve seen an increase in homophobia assaults across London. I think we are always walking a fine line with all minorities. Take a nap and there will always be another group trying to eradicate our rights. Look what’s happening in the states again with the abortion debate. It’s so scary and it is the tip of the iceberg. I was in the west end when the Free Tommy Robinson march was taking place. It was so distressing to see this swathe of people united in their hate. I felt sick as I walked down Regent Street away from them.”

Salient points about the historic importance of rights hard fought for. I wonder if such civil rights are taught in schools? They weren't from my recollection of school days but perhaps now?

Uncle John: I have no idea what’s being taught in schools today. Certainly not in the 70/80s.

There is a dire need to form solidarity between the various groups and unite against the common enemy of capitalism, as it's history has always exploited so many groups as well as those who identify as LGBTQ+. It would be a travesty if schooling in the UK where we're from has yet to grant civil rights history the time in the syllabus. On a tangential topic, and perhaps closely related to the video, what form of inclusivity would you like to see in pop music videos, or has that battle been won?

“There’s a realness to how the actors look in Ground Zero. I really like that. There’s always going to be room for more inclusivity across any visuals being made. I don’t know the answer to how you balance it without looking like jumping on the bandwagon - I think that’s a hard decision. You want the selection process to be open and fair but if you only get a bunch of white guys applying what do you do? Do you find a way to get to all groups? It’s a new area for me so it’s a huge learning curve.”

Intriguing points, although I was actually referring to the stories we tell within the mainstream pop music video idiom. There's a good arc to the 'Ground Zero' video storyline, although, arguably, there is always room for the celebration of functioning same sex relationships in this medium. What thoughts do you have regarding this?

“We have a responsibility to tell our truth through the visual form. That’s not to say I can’t hand it to a director and let them have their vision, but they do need to understand what the thread is through the piece. There’s a young singer/songwriter called Seeva. He is gay, and Asian and he writes with honesty of where he is in his life. It’s beautiful.”

Well said. It's important as a director to be aware of how easy it is to only present minorities in a tragic frame, hence the ending to the video rounding up the drama. Before we love and leave you (and give people a chance to give the video another watch), any plans for the future you may want to share?

Uncle John:

“I feel my songwriting is growing in terms of musical complexity and content so I want to keep at it. ‘Ground Zero’ was the final chapter of a three track EP called HOPE. I’ve got many new songs ready to go into production and would always welcome more live work.”

Again, thanks so much to Jessica Winter for alerting me to your output and good vibes. May fans old and new gain loads out of your new material and make many a purchase via your bandcamp. Take care.

‘Ground Zero’ is out now (via Bandcamp and other sharing platforms).

Follow Uncle John https://www.instagram.com/unclejohn_official/ and YouTube

John Clay. https://heylink.me/Johnclayartist/

…additionally, the conversation in the following video is another level of reveal.